Episode 8: Sinking Down

About this episode

After eight episodes of complexity, what do we do next—freeze, fight, or move forward? In the finale, Imer returns to a musician’s instinct: adaptation, improvisation, and the courage to keep playing even when the harmony isn’t settled. With voices like Greg Parsons, Sarah Breuel, and Brian Stanley, the series looks ahead—asking whether the missions movement can change without losing its soul, and whether we can learn to become bridges in a world that keeps shifting under our feet.

People featured in this episode

⁠Imer Santiago⁠ — Host. Puerto Rican–American trumpeter, jazz musician, and worship leader based in St. Cloud, Florida.

⁠Ted Esler⁠ — President/CEO of Missio Nexus (since 2015). Former church planter in Sarajevo, Bosnia; previously held leadership roles with Pioneers. Author of The Innovation Crisis; holds a PhD in Intercultural Studies from Fuller Theological Seminary.

⁠Mekdes Haddis⁠ — Ethiopian-born missiologist and author challenging “missions as usual” approaches in the Western church. Founder of The Mutuality Lab. Author of A Just Mission.

⁠Aaron Renn⁠ — Writer and consultant based in Indianapolis. Senior Fellow at American Reformer; previously a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a Managing Director at Accenture. Author of Life in the Negative World.

⁠Mark Matlock⁠ — Ordained minister and author focused on youth discipleship and next-generation leadership. Founder of WisdomWorks and Senior Fellow at Barna. Co-author of Faith for Exiles (with David Kinnaman).

⁠Neil Shenvi⁠ — Writer and speaker known for apologetics and engagement with questions of faith, philosophy, and culture. Holds a PhD in theoretical chemistry (UC Berkeley) and studied at Princeton.

⁠Harvey Kwiyani⁠ — Malawian theologian and missiologist known for work on decolonizing mission and global/diaspora Christianity. Author of Decolonizing Mission.

⁠Aaron Pierce⁠ — International mission leader with Steiger International, focused on mobilizing and equipping Christians to reach young people outside the church. Author of Not Beyond Reach.

⁠Greg Parsons⁠ — Missions leader associated with Frontier Ventures (formerly the U.S. Center for World Mission) and William Carey International University.

⁠Brian Stanley⁠ — Historian of world Christianity and Christian missions. Professor at the University of Edinburgh; has written and edited multiple books on missions history.

Music

Eric Burket / What Wondrous Love? / courtesy of ⁠Eric Burket⁠
Kikoru / Live To Tell / courtesy of ⁠Epidemic Sound⁠
Hanna Lindgren / Edge of Ocean Reefs / courtesy of ⁠Epidemic Sound⁠
Dimas Sanchez (live ensemble performance) / courtesy of ⁠Dimas Sanchez⁠
Additional music by ⁠Imer Santiago

Credits

Host: Imer Santiago
Produced by: Arrival Creative
Presented by: Missio Nexus

Show overview

Polyphonic: Mission After Empire is an 8-episode narrative podcast hosted by

Imer Santiago and produced by Missio Nexus. If youʼve ever wondered whether “mission” and “empire” can be untangled—or if weʼve been pretending itʼs simpler than it is—this show is for you.

Imer brings his experience as a musician and teacher into conversations with historians, missiologists, practitioners, and everyday voices—tracing what we inherited, what we missed, and what we might need to admit before we can move forward. Music isnʼt background here—itʼs the glue, the metaphor, and sometimes the argument.

This isnʼt a definitive answer guide, because we probably wonʼt get all the answers before Heaven. Itʼs a place to start listening—polyphonic in the truest sense: many voices, each with its own melody, heard together.

Host

Imer Santiag o is a Puerto Rican–American trumpeter, jazz musician, and worship leader. Heʼs from Lorain, Ohio, and now lives in St. Cloud, Florida.

He studied Jazz at Ohio State University and earned a Master of Music in Jazz Studies in New Orleans.

He serves as Director of Bands at St. Cloud Middle School and performs and leads worship throughout the year.

Transcription for this episode

Episode 8 transcription

00 02

Episode 8, where we talk about the next generation. When I first moved to the States, the hardest things to do for me was worship because I was surrounded with English worship. And my friend used to take me to this Presbyterian church and we would do hymns.

00 29

and it was really hard, but I learned to focus because I came from like a Pentecostal kind of church where everybody’s yelling and screaming and all of that. But because of that season where I didn’t have what I would have wanted, I got to experience listening to the lyrics and this quiet kind of way of worshiping.

the Lord, so I really do love hymns. Like in the mornings, I love listening to hymns as I’m praying and getting ready. We need to be exposed to aspects of the faith which we may not normally interact with or understand. We need both the spirit of Pentecostal worship and the truth of the classic hymns. The resulting richness will allow us to adapt to the changing world around us. And if we don’t adapt, we will die. uh

you guys are righteous

01 36

Christ laid aside His crown for my

But how are we doing and where are we at in that process of adaptation? Will we survive into the future? You know, I think there’s lots of reasons to think that Christianity can, you know, can thrive into the future. The mainline churches that dominated America back in that 1950s I talked about, they couldn’t adapt to changing times and they still haven’t figured it out. 60, 70 years later, they haven’t figured out what’s gone wrong.

They can’t turn it around. Evangelicals have, you know, found ways to create models that work in different, you know, environments. Cities start coming back in the 90s. Oh, here’s your emerging church. Convenient, you know, we can have church in a pub. It doesn’t mean it was all correct or it’s all right, but there is a sense of which I think this kind of like thinking about how to, the right way to relate to culture.

It’s been a hallmark of evangelicalism, but maybe the next generations of people coming up are going to do it a very different way and they’ll figure it out. ah You we may have had too long a run with the boomers. You know, you don’t have to be anti-boomer to realize that we’ve had a boomer dominated society for a very long time. And therefore we sort of been locked into boomer paradigms.

And I think now the decline to the baby boom generation is finally here. It opens up space for younger generations to get on stage and show what they can do. Doesn’t mean it’s all going to be good. You know? You got to earn it all over again. I know that one of my concerns, it has been for years, here locally as you see the Hispanic population, the Latino population growing, growing, growing. And it has been for decades, but

03 38

30 years ago I think you could expect it in Orlando and Kissimmee, but here in St. Cloud the demographic has changed completely. I taught here in 2001 my rookie year out of college and there were very few minority students at St. Cloud Middle School. Now I want to say we’re least 50 % Hispanic Latino. Probably more. And so my concern is if, and I’ll speak to like the Puerto Rican community, because that’s where I come from.

04 07

If we don’t get educated and work through our stuff, particularly with believers, my concern is that if we get in positions of influence and power and authority, which we are, then we’ll say, okay, white people, here we go. We’re gonna get you back or whatever, or whoever people. And so how do you lead in a way where you’re getting educated, you’re learning from the past and say, okay, there were some blind spots, but how do we not in turn commit those blind spots or another blind spot? ah

But for this county, that’s what I see. How can we make sure that we are educating ourselves and learning and contributing in a beautiful way instead of like, now we’re gonna, there’s payback due. You hear different things and I’m like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. Well, I think one of the things that we face, a big thing that we face on this issue, I would just say is um on the one hand, I’m sure there’s a huge temptation to minimize.

issues of colonialism and say, yep, it happened, but that’s not us. But just because you may not be responsible for a problem doesn’t mean you’re not part of the solution. So I do think that uh kind of a dodge or an out that I’ve heard people say is, well, hey, that was before. That’s not what admissions is like now. And it’d be easy to just kind of like sweep it under the table. But there’s also…

05 34

I think in missiology, a strand of people that are fixated on the topic, and that is the only thing they want to talk about. That’s the veneer over everything. And somehow we’ve got to transcend both the temptation to ignore it and the temptation to fixate on it and figure out how to work our way forward uh in a kind of wise and understanding way. And that’s elusive, and that’s pretty hard.

06 02

And that’s easy for me to say. It may be harder for somebody in a different situation to say. And I think each new generation walks into this conversation and they’re starting from scratch. They’re learning anew.

06 21

They’re gonna have to process it based on the contemporary discussion that’s going on. And right now that contemporary discussion going on is not a real healthy one because there’s so much division around issues of immigration and I mean a whole host of topics along that line. anyway. Another thing I wonder about is, because these are tough conversations and they’re not, and I feel the tension too, it’s like you can’t say one plus one equals two. Like some of these issues probably won’t be resolved.

this side of heaven you know yeah I’m sure all right but I wonder if conversations that we’re having now in this era of humanity again none of us were around 200 years ago but it had they be I’m assuming that they didn’t occur such frequency in 1800 but would we be further ahead whatever that means but you know at least folks understanding like okay we can we don’t be scared to talk about these tough issues in your opinion Brian

Where are we now in world missions? Are we in a good place, a bad place? What do you see and feel? Well, I think we’re in a transitional phase. you know, the currents are flowing in many different directions. Um, and it’s not always easy to make sense of that complexity. Uh, but I’m sure in the long run, that’s a good thing.

If I’ve realized anything about this topic over the course of these discussions, it has been that nothing is simple. Struggling to understand these complexities is vital to our growth as individuals and the church, but it can also be disorienting and uncomfortable. I think it’s okay to be angry at times, right? You disagree with this or you learn about the past, right? And you say, oh, this makes me angry that the church did this or my country did this or whatever. But then I’m like, okay, if I’m a Jesus follower, I cannot

respond the way someone who’s not a Jesus follower responds. And so there’s grace, right? We don’t always get it right. But at the end of the day, I say as a believer in Jesus, Lord help me to, know, not just stay in the angry, frustrated area, but okay, Lord, help me to, can I get what people who will biblically help me to uh process what I’m feeling and then find a way forward? Because at the end of the day,

regardless of denomination, regardless of um political affiliations and all that, if we’re brothers and sisters in Christ, we’re headed towards a future with Jesus and a kingdom that’s gonna embrace every tribe and every tongue. At least, right, that’s what the scripture says. So to me, that’s where, I have my moments, right? But I feel like I can’t stay stuck there. So I’m curious, what would you say to, whether it’s students, young professionals?

Folks have been journey with Jesus for a long time who maybe in their journeys, they find something, whether it’s with missions that they’re frustrated about or colonialism or maybe something else. How do we respond when we’re in that moment of frustration or you’re now aware to these things that maybe you weren’t as aware of in the past? Yeah, I think um it can be disorienting and it can cause a lot of disequilibrium.

that’s sometimes the challenge of coming into really diverse uh environments because you have some people that are maybe have thought about something to a level seven and some people that are just coming in at a level two. And, know, one of my mentors was uh in when I was at Biola uh as a student in intercultural studies was Marvin Mayers. And he wrote a book called Christianity confronts culture.

And he talked about this model of like, zones of experimentation, where we have this norm. And then we have these zones of experimentation, these little spaces where we’re willing to stretch. um And, sometimes when we walk into some environments are stretching us too much. And so when that happens, what we feel is alienated, we can feel anger.

We can feel humiliation, all these weird feelings that come up when we get outside of what we’re comfortable with to, you know, experiment with challenging the norm of our experience. And I think what’s happened with the internet in particularly because the United States has always been a diverse culture, but we haven’t always had to deal with the diversity on as deep as a level as

the current day has. And that’s caused us all to be to experience disequilibrium. I think even, even for people that are in minority, uh, places, uh, from minority communities feel the disequilibrium too. Um, because disequilibrium can happen in a lot of different ways. It’s not the same, we’re all experiencing it because of just the way that we’re able to get so deep with each other’s stories.

And it’s happening deeper and more frequently. And so it’s causing us all to feel, I think, some angst in this moment of change. um And so we to be just real mindful of the moment that we’re in and realize it’s OK to feel this disequilibrium, um but make sure that we’re grounding it and in good uh biblical analysis and reflection. And I think sometimes we grab

to academia and some intellectual thinking, we can grab to other systems, political systems or philosophies to find that equilibrium. And in doing so, we neglect the scriptures. If we stay rooted in the scriptures, like Mark said, is there a world where we just give up on missions completely? Do you ever find individuals who say,

we’ve been doing it wrong, instead of trying to fix it, let’s just stop. Absolutely. Let’s just, why do we need this anymore? I mean, so I think there’s a theological question there when it comes to missions. Do you believe that Jesus’ command to disciple the nations is something to be, that includes sending, the sending of missionaries? Or are you thinking of that as just a completely organic process?

in which the mixing of cultures is just going to make it happen without a lot of additional effort. mean, my personal view is that in the Bible we see the model of sending as key and crucial to accomplishing the Great Commission. And it really doesn’t matter how they’re sent. I don’t care if it… I mean, we talk about the…

The model, for example, that we use in the West, a personal support raising model, very common. uh I don’t think that’s ordained necessarily, but the idea that you’re sending somebody to cross a cultural barrier to take a message, I think that’s kind of an irrefutable truth that’s in the New Testament. uh But other models are there too, know, the immigration is a model that works, uh know, businesses, mission.

I mean, it could go, you could go on and on. There’s all sorts of other ways that the gospel spreads. But I don’t think any of those kind of obviate the need for people actually going. So as a believer, I would imagine most believers would feel that you’ve got to take the call to share the gospel to the nation, starting in your own community and, and then as God provides to the world. um But then there’s obviously the critiques we’ve been mentioning in this conversation. Is it?

Is it better to quote unquote do missions incorrectly or maybe less than ideally? hey, let’s just, cause there are some who would say, let’s just not do this at all. If we can’t get it right, whatever that means, it’s safer, it’s more respectful to not do missions. It’s obviously sharing it badly is better than not sharing it. is, this is, like, think DL Moody said this. I like my way of sharing the gospel better than your way of not sharing it.

The gospel is the power of God to save people from hell. My goodness. Are you insane? What’s better, a fireman and rescuing a person clumsily or not rescuing them? Come on, guys. So I think that if we don’t get that right, that is such a no brainer. It’s true. Unfortunately, I see people asking that question. I’m guys, what is wrong with you? That aside, of course, we try to do it well. Of course, we try to be sensitive. But if you’re worried about

15 34

a culturally insensitive way of saving people from being damned eternally? My goodness, guys, get a grip. You’re thinking, I get the world thinks that, like they want us to do everything just right, but I’m not dismissing concerns that we can be heavy-handed and intent, I get it. But let’s put the first things first. Jesus command to go and preach the gospel, we’re doing that. I’m sorry if I didn’t do it well, but I’m just trying to obey Jesus and trying to bring his love to people. Excellent.

16 02

So my question, Neil, is uh as you enter different spaces, whether they be academic, know, churches, etc., I’m wondering how you navigate the tension. Because I hold to scripture as truth. definitely do. But I’m open minded in terms of I’ll listen to a person of a different faith speak and be able to say, yeah, I don’t agree with you, but I appreciate or maybe we do intersect in certain things, but

16 30

You know, I can still walk away and say I still believe the Bible is true. But then I have friends and family who would be like, I’m not gonna hear anybody talk on critical theory because that’s just even if, you know, someone like yourself who’s studied, who’s a believer, all these years of experience, how do you balance the tension of walking into, you know, Christian spaces and you’re gonna find people all over the spectrum excited to hear you, not excited to hear you, et cetera. I just hold the dialogue as the best way to

to do almost anything, Start by listening. James talks about how we should be slow to speak, quick to listen. So start with just listening. Try to understand what they’re actually saying. Don’t just assume they’re saying something. Ask questions. Try to really, really deeply understand them. And only then, once you’ve understood them, then you can critique them. You should, in fact. But I think a lot of two-way dialogue is how to handle these tough conversations.

so that you can hear their concerns and affirm them when they’re true, and then they can hear your concerns and hopefully they’ll affirm them when you’re right. But I really find that a lot of evangelicals that are across the woke spectrum, insofar as we share a common set of beliefs about Christianity, and we hopefully do, we often can, we don’t necessarily meet in the middle, but we do come closer. And the middle again, it’s not about left or right,

The Bible’s in the middle. I want to meet in the Bible. I don’t want to meet

on the right of the Bible or I want to be on the Bible. So I think the goal is always in conversation not to get us all sitting right in the middle of Scripture in one conversation, but all of us to be brought closer to

Scripture. And frankly, if you are on Scripture, it’s not arrogant to say, I want someone to stand where I am because we’re both sitting on God’s Word, not on, it’s not me I’m pointing you to. So

But I think, yeah, dialogue and all I talk to talk about how dialogue is so important because it helps diffuse those very tense situations.

18 33

I think it is critical that we keep talking to one another. The polarization that we see in the American landscape does not make sense. But I read that somewhere, I can’t remember now, but somebody did describe the American culture as a culture that’s obsessed with being right. If you are raised up in a very individualistic culture,

19 04

that is obsessed with being right, then it becomes difficult to engage others who think different from you. Good things come from a coming together of different things.

19 23

that there’s need to…

19 27

bring our ideas together, let them cross-border it and new ideas emerge out of that. So I think it is critical that we at least keep the lines of communication.

between people who don’t agree. If it’s possible to occasionally get them in a conversation, that’s even better. We all know in part. And because we know in part, we need the knowledge that God has given to the people around us to know God better, to know better really.

And if we are talking to people who only think like us, we will never get a fuller picture of what we are supposed to see. We have to be intentional about talking to people who don’t think like us. In the world of theology, I encourage all my students.

20 36

Peek-a.

20 38

book from a theologian from another continent.

let them shift your thinking a little. Right? And that’s a way of, they may not necessarily agree with everything they’re saying, but it grows their thinking. We can only really be ourselves in communion with others. And they have to be different others. They cannot be others who are like us. They cannot be clones of ourselves. We need a different other.

We need to talk to people who don’t think like us.

21 15

powerful. I’m wondering what your thoughts are. If a church were to approach you and say, we know we’ve not done things the best way, we lament, we repent, and we want to do it differently. We want to do it with humility and better. What are some ways that a church or organization, or even individuals, they can be guided in a process of correcting the narrative?

of Verdi. Yeah, so this is to try and undo the damage of mission as conquest, Yes. How do we undo that story? I think that one of the key things that uh I say to my American or my Western friends is

Can you please listen for a bit?

22 11

and resist the urge to teach and correct everybody. And really, if you are here just to listen to what we is doing, maybe you can just be with us.

22 30

Come and just be with us. See the way we pray. See the way we read the

Bible. Just be with us. And of course, I know that that’s very difficult for Westerners to sit down and listen and not try to solve the problems as quickly as possible. That’s difficult. But I think…

in that process of really being limited, doesn’t it? You cannot give us your wisdom. Just sit down on this side. You cannot give us your answers. Just sit down with me. Just sit down with me. There is a conversion that takes place that allows people to see things differently, to begin to see that actually. What is at work here? How do we join in?

It’s not about our money, it’s not about our power. It’s just God through his spirit at work here. How do we join it? So I think that is critical. I see this and again this connects with the area conversation about the legacy of colonialism that makes people behave a certain way because of course that’s how we were taught 70 years ago. But there’s a sense in which

see it a lot here in the UK. I think it’s the same in the US. But if there’s any cross-cultural mentoring happening, it’s usually white people mentoring black people or mentoring brown people. It’s almost like there’s not much that black and brown people can teach to white people. And that’s part of the story that we need to undo.

Western missionaries sit down under the feet of a non-Western apostle, so to speak. I think that’s critical. Whether we agree that we are entering cultures in a similar manner to the way Christ came to the earth or not, I think we can agree that a posture of humility is important. I had a situation, not a situation, but a moment where when we have statewide testing, um

because I’m bilingual and speak a couple other languages. So you know, I guess quadrilingual or whatever. But French is one of those languages. so they had, most of the kids were students who knew more English than, or excuse me, more Spanish than English. And there was one young lady who spoke more French than English. And so I used my French and it’s good. It’s not the best in the world, but I can definitely communicate with French speakers. And I try to help her out with the directions to the test and whatnot.

And then about a week or two later, she found me in the hallway and her her in her best English. uh She was like, Mr. Santiago, I want to thank you for taking the time to speak to me in French during that testing day. I felt seen and heard and valued. And for me, that was a moment, not because it’s the first time something like that has happened. But I know as I’ve spoken with different churches and student ministries, more along the lines of multicultural, intercultural worship, musical worship, I tell folks like

You don’t have to have it all together, but start small and start now. So even if you’re in a context where, like here in central Florida, there’s an abundance of Spanish speakers, right? Even if you’re not someone who’s fluent in Spanish, if you’re a pastor or a leader, just saying, buenos dias or bienvenidos, something little like that can let people know that they’re valued and heard. So I agree with you on the posture, I think is a huge thing. Even in my classroom here, um where I…

I am the leader and the expert in what I’m teaching my middle schoolers but I leave room that if they have a better way to or a different way to approach a piece of music or a concept, I will always listen to them as long as they’re respectful in how they present it. And I’ll say 10%, 15 % of the time, I abandon what I’m doing and say, okay, we’re gonna go with so-andso’s way. So I think I’m not perfect at it but I…

saying all this to say I resonate with what it’s resonating with me what you’re saying the heart posture is a huge component I think of really anything we do in the world yeah I think I mean Jesus was humble I mean right I mean Philippians 2 talks about you know I mean he just the posture and the mind of Christ to come down and uh to wrap himself in human uh flesh to be able to relate and connect with us

There’s so much theologically going on in that, but that posture, uh you know, he could have come down with laser beams coming out of his eyes, just incinerating the wicked and evil, but that’s not how he came. uh I think, you know, that he would even be accused of doing wrong, right? Because of the people that he affiliated with. That’s powerful. mean, Jesus is just, you know, blows us out of the water.

to how we act. I think we just need to really focus on how we emulate Him and imagine how would Jesus walk into this? know, first it starts with me and a posture of humility and a posture of grace and love to others. And then when it comes to those in the faith, I think, you know, it’s a classic challenge of where do we draw the lines, you know, and I think there are certain things, you know, a church that I’m part of kind of categorize them and things, these are things that

that I’ll die for, you know, in terms of the only way to God is through Jesus and, you know, and just see key things there. There’s certain things that I, like, I think are important that I’ll defend and then certain things are like, hey, we can talk about it, but it’s really not all that important. And the biggest thing is like, is realizing that when we have these secondary theological things and we make them primary, then not only are we creating division, unnecessary division, because let’s be clear.

there’s a difference between green and blue, and you know, they’re not the same, but then there’s light green and dark green, you know what mean? So there are things that are, there are lines. Again, it goes back to the colonialism thing. There are things that are right and they’re wrong. There are things that are not true and things that are true. Let’s be clear about that. But when we make secondary things, and I could talk about some of what those things are, and even things like politics get in that category, when we make them primary,

then we’re creating unnecessary division, plus we’re creating confusion for people who don’t know Jesus. We actually make it harder for them to see Jesus when we make those secondary things primary. So we can get into the details of what is primary versus secondary, but that’s kind of my lens in how I see it. So far I’m hearing that there is hope for the future, but we need to be able to adapt quickly to a changing world. It’s going to be really important for us to learn to talk to one another and to maintain humility as we…

forward. This process will likely cause a certain measure of discomfort and disorientation. We also need to strive to understand what the primary issues really are and keep those at the forefront. I was wondering though if anyone was frustrated with our progress or with the mindset of people in the church. I asked Greg Parsons to not hold back in sharing his frustrations and this is what he had to say. Oh boy.

Yeah, I have those thoughts from time to time, but I don’t usually voice them. So I’m not quite sure exactly where to go. You’ve maybe stumped me a little. You know, I do think that it’s way too easy for us as believers and as a church to just ignore the third of a world’s population that has

little or no access. I mean, there are these frontier people groups, hundreds of groups, millions and millions and millions of people, some of the millions within each group who have basically less than 0.01 % Christian of any kind, any kind of Christian. And Christian is very broadly defined.

always. People have to realize that when you see the word Christian, we’re not talking about the guy you’ve been discipling with or the gal in your church even, know, who you know has got a good faith relationship. We’re talking about those, we’re talking about Mormons. Mormons are included in the definition of Christian because Christ is central to Mormons. Maybe it’s not central enough. We think they misunderstand that. That’s, you know, all that’s probably true.

but they’re still fit in the Christian world. So, you know, everything from Catholic, Protestant, conservative, charismatic, Pentecostal, Mormons and

Joe’s Witnesses, okay, to summarize, that’s Christian. So when you go somewhere, what does somebody see? What do they think is Christian? um How, yeah, and so anyway, I just think, I think that…

The fact that we blissfully go along and have been so blessed with the gospel, if we don’t have the heart to think about how to share that, even just with people on our block or within our family, and that we’re not praying and passionate about that, that’s really sad. In general, are we moving in the right direction with missions?

um And I know that’s a loaded question because we are we talking about West? Are we talking about global south, et cetera? But when I ask you that question, what do you think? uh Yeah, I think it is shifting. think um I don’t know if it’s at the rate that I want it to because it’s costly. know, when you’re used to doing something, you’ve invested so much in it, in doing it one certain way to shift.

is gonna cost you a lot. And it’s really tough with mission, because it’s so personal. And there’s a lot of legacy mission that’s like connected to family roots and all of that. I always say it’s like being in a military family. There’s just so much honor and, you know, pride and all of this connected to it. And so um some of the things that we question

33 28

touch a really sore spot because it’s very sensitive and it’s hard for people to go back and look at the history and say, maybe I’m a part of that too. So I get that. But I think because that work hasn’t been done yet, it’s a very slow ship to move. But I will say,

I’m optimistic that it’s slowly shifting, um but the rate is very, very, very, very slow. That resonates with me uh in terms of how the rate of how I think churches receive intercultural musical worship. I’ve been accused at times, you’re being divisive. I’m like, no, when I look at the book of Revelation, it says every tribe, every tongue. Now that doesn’t mean that.

you know, a church has to sing in Spanish to be a good church. I’m not saying that. I think that through that one of the aspects we can be shaped to be more like Jesus is through musical worship. And so if I’m quick to judge the neighbor that doesn’t look like me, well, maybe I need to, can learn more about what they’re going through just by singing in a song that makes me feel uncomfortable because I don’t speak, I don’t know, Swahili. So then hopefully I would say, Lord, I’m feeling attention. I know it’s, we’re praising you, but I wonder.

How does my neighbor who’s come from another nation, where are they struggling? How can I help them? Whether they’re a believer or not. So I think it could be formative and it is so slow to get folks to do even just a little bit. Cause I’m not saying let’s bring a whole new song you’ve never heard. I’m saying let’s take a song you do and let’s do a chorus. I’ll teach you how to sing it in that language. We’ll keep it the same style. Musicians don’t have to change what they’re doing. And it’s a slow moving ship. But I do believe that

Like my wife will tell me, maybe it’s when you’re old and gray, maybe when you’re gone, some of these things that you’re planning now and people like you, the fruit will be there. So that encourages me. I hope you’re encouraged too with what you’re doing that some of the fruit will be now and some will be in the future. At various points, we’ve discussed the possibility of giving up on missions entirely. Sarah Bruel shared her frustrations with some people in the church who may be focusing too much on issues like colonialism.

and endangering or slowing down the movement. Christian historian Brian Stanley holds similar concerns. There can come a point in criticism where one just gives up on the whole enterprise and there’s a danger, particularly in Europe, that the churches have done that. um We don’t talk about missions in Europe. We talk maybe about world Christianity and about global mission in the singular, but…

There’s no concept of missions as a separate area of church life in most of Europe. um But maybe we paid for price for that in terms of you rarely get any real reference to the church overseas in worship services and so on. I think you can criticize the American usage from a different angle because missions

still to mean what we do as North Americans, what we go out and do to the rest of the world. And the danger of that is that it goes with imperial attitudes, with a tendency to dominate, a tendency to cultural insensitivity, a failure to recognize that church-going rates in most of sub-Saharan

Africa are way above what they are in Europe and even in North America.

So, yeah, if you attain the idea of missions, you have to combine it with a servant heart, a servant mentality. um Mission is about being sent in the likeness of Christ who came as a servant. ah And that is the key thing. If we are sent in the likeness of Christ, as Brian suggested, will we ever be ready?

If, as a musician, I waited so I could hit each note or sing in perfect harmony, would I have even started? I want the last word to go to Harvey. He is an example of someone who had a seemingly impossible dream as a young boy in Africa. He longed to be involved in the work of God around the world and faithfully made it happen. He is both a result of and a critic of and

If we wait to get perfect candidates, we will wait forever. What makes the difference is when they go with their imperfections, which everybody has, are they willing and able to learn? Are they humble enough to sit down and realize, actually, this is not what I’m supposed to be doing here?

and figure out how to do things differently. So I would say, go. uh You will never be fully ready. You will never be fully perfect. But go. But go with an attitude that allows you to learn from the people that you serve. I’ve often thought of myself as a bridge. A bridge between cultures. A bridge between skin colors. A bridge between musical styles.

bridge between denominations. And I think that bridge concept is important here as well. All of us have to find ways to bridge the gaps between ourselves and people who are different than us. So whether that’s being a missionary overseas, or someone discussing important and controversial topics, or someone explaining classical to a jazz musician, we have to find a way so that we can harmonize our voices together.

39 46

For the glory of God.

39 51

Polyphonic, Mission After Empire is hosted by me, Imer Santiago, and produced by Missile Nexus and Arrival Creative. Thanks for listening.