Episode 2: Man Has Dominated Man to His Harm

About this episode

To understand where missions is going, we have to deal honestly with where itʼs been. Imer follows the thread of memory and history with voices like Mark Charles, Brian Stanley, and Harvey Kwiyani—exploring the entanglement of church and empire, the Doctrine of Discovery, and the uneasy question of whether “mission” has always carried a shadow. Itʼs an episode about blind spots—and what it takes to reveal them.

People featured in this episode

Imer Santiag o — Host. Puerto Rican–American trumpeter, jazz musician, and worship leader based in St. Cloud, Florida. Puerto Rican–American trumpeter, jazz musician, and worship leader based in St. Cloud, Florida.

Ted Esler — President/CEO of Missio Nexus (since 2015 . Former church planter in Sarajevo, Bosnia; previously held leadership roles with Pioneers. Author of The Innovation Crisis; holds a PhD in Intercultural Studies Fuller Theological Seminary).

Sarah Breuel — Christian leader originally from Brazil and based in Rome. Founder/director of Revive Europe; has served with IFES and the Lausanne Movement.

Mark Charles — Speaker, writer, and consultant on the intersections of race, culture, faith, and American history. Co-author of Unsettling Truths (with Soong-Chan Rah) on the legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery.

Brian Stanley — Historian of world Christianity and Christian missions. Professor at the University of Edinburgh; has written and edited multiple books on missions history.

Harvey Kwiy ani — Malawian theologian and missiologist known for work on decolonizing mission and global/diaspora Christianity. Author of Decolonizing Mission.

Mark Matlock — Ordained minister and author focused on youth discipleship and next-generation leadership. Founder of WisdomWorks and Senior Fellow at Barna. Co-author of Faith for Exiles (with David Kinnaman).

Music

El Equipo del Norte / A Melodia Cortejada / courtesy of Epidemic Sound

Tellsonic / Desert Wind / courtesy of Epidemic Sound

National Anthem Worx / National Anthem United Kingdom / courtesy of Epidemic Sound

Christopher Moe Ditlevsen / Lumina / courtesy of Epidemic Sound

Calvary Choir; Choir Boys of St. Andrew’s Church, N.Y. / Onward Christian Soldiers / Public domain via archive.org

Dex 1200 / In a Quiet Room / courtesy of Epidemic Sound

Credits

Host: Imer Santia g o

Produced by: Arrival Creative Presented by: Missio Nexus

Show overview

Polyphonic: Mission After Empire is an 8-episode narrative podcast hosted by

Imer Santiago and produced by Missio Nexus. If youʼve ever wondered whether “mission” and “empire” can be untangled—or if weʼve been pretending itʼs simpler than it is—this show is for you.

Imer brings his experience as a musician and teacher into conversations with historians, missiologists, practitioners, and everyday voices—tracing what we inherited, what we missed, and what we might need to admit before we can move forward. Music isnʼt background here—itʼs the glue, the metaphor, and sometimes the argument.

This isnʼt a definitive answer guide, because we probably wonʼt get all the answers before Heaven. Itʼs a place to start listening—polyphonic in the truest sense: many voices, each with its own melody, heard together.

Host

Imer Santiag o is a Puerto Rican–American trumpeter, jazz musician, and worship leader. Heʼs from Lorain, Ohio, and now lives in St. Cloud, Florida.

He studied Jazz at Ohio State University and earned a Master of Music in Jazz Studies in New Orleans.

He serves as Director of Bands at St. Cloud Middle School and performs and leads worship throughout the year.

Transcription for this episode

Episode 2 transcription

00 02
Episode 2, where we talk about the distant and not so distant past. I do love Brazilian like bossa nova and things. To hear that just brings memories and it’s kind of like unique to Brazil and it is a joyful nation. So you kind of see that across, but in some rhythms and instruments that they just have a different melody to it. And so I love it. This is my friend, Sarah.
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She’s from Brazil and is a missionary in Italy. I met her years ago when I was leading worship at Urbana. We’ll catch up with her later on, but in this episode, I want to talk about memories, the past. Are they positive and happy like her memories of Brazil? Or are they more shadowed and complicated than most Christians remember? Have we understood our history correctly? And if not, what does it mean for our faith today? With your Puerto Rican heritage, I’m just curious, do you think colonialism
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colonialism is a significant topic in Puerto Rico? It is. It is because the history of the island, it’s been hundreds of years really since Puerto Rico has been fully autonomous. You have the Spaniards that came in and took control, you know, hundreds of years ago and then the United States, I think it was 1898, took control from the Spaniards. And it’s been a process even since the late 1800s. But there are people who will converse and just talk about that. We’re still colonized even in…
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this year. how about maybe this will show my ignorance some but are there indigenous or native people in Puerto Rico that are still unique from the larger culture, larger ethnic background of the island? Knowing where we come from is important and tricky. Like many places Puerto Rico is a mix of different cultures and people and backgrounds which can get really messy.
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and it was the same way all the way back at the start of Christianity. Mark Charles is an author and speaker who holds dual citizenship with the United States and the Navajo Nation. He has thought about these complexities for a
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So, Navajo language). In our Navajo culture, when we introduce ourselves, we obviously give our four clans. We’re matrilineal as a people. Our identities come from our mother’s mother. My mother’s mother is American of Dutch heritage, and that’s why I say t’sin’beke’é d’inéh. Loosely translated, that means I’m from the wooden shoe people.
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When you ask many evangelicals about spiritual disciplines that shape them, they talk about praying and reading their Bible. Mark had a different approach that had affected him very deeply. You know, one of my most, one of my most, not only life-sustaining, but paradigm-shifting spiritual disciplines that I practice.
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is for the past 25 years, I’ve been waking up on a regular basis and going to watch the sunrise.
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Now, when you watch the sunrise on Easter morning or you have an early flight, it’s always beautiful, it always catches your sight. But when you watch it day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, and eventually decade after decade, it does something incredibly deep in your soul and in your relationship with creator.
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Now, I’ve been a Christian my entire life. I’ve read the Bible my entire life. I’ve studied the Bible my entire life. I’ve done mission trips. I’ve pastored churches. I’ve taught in seminaries. I’ve done everything you need to do.
I’ve been on leadership of denominational boards. You name it, I’ve done it. I can tell you that the experience of watching the sunrise has taught me more about
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creator
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than I ever gained by reading a Even the Bible.
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Not that the Bible’s bad, but if you want to learn about Creator, you don’t read a book, you experience creation, right? And my people have been watching the sunrise long before we were colonized by Western European Christians. And so they’re not bringing God here. They may have stories about a son of God who we don’t know about.
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that would be beneficial for us to know. But we know God. Mark’s words made me think back to our conversations in the park. Strangely, we had run into several missionaries, but not all of the same ilk. Two of them were Jehovah’s Witnesses and only had a couple of quick minutes to spare as they rushed to an appointment. They seem to be familiar with this topic though. So I think you’re talking about the connection between colonialism and missionary work.
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because there’s a lot of that affected in the past, right? So we, because of the more global society that we live in now, things are a little bit different. There’s still a lot of untouched places out there. We should have been doing things the way Christ wanted the whole time, but that was never gonna happen. That was never gonna last anyway. But we’re trying to get back to that first century way that the Christians were governed by love. They were just governed by love. So.
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Spirit and truth. Spirit and truth. Spirit and truth. Could this have something to do with how we have viewed and carried out missions work over the centuries? Are there certain people who focus more on the truth aspect, the communication of the gospel, and others who focus more on the spirit, the way in which it is done? Did the sun that Mark looked at every morning for 25 years represent spirit and the
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Bible represent truth? If so, perhaps we can learn something from this practice. After all, we are commanded to worship in both spirit and in truth. It turns out this would be a recurring theme as I explored this topic. The Jehovah’s Witness had also mentioned getting back to what Christ had wanted us to do the whole time. But even that isn’t always as clear as we think.
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If we ask, just do what Jesus did, well, Jesus was fairly ethnocentric. He is not a good model to follow for missions. When Jesus gave the Great Commission at the end of His ministry, the only model the disciples had for mission was making prostatites. That’s the only model they had for reaching Gentiles, was circumcising the men, changing their diet to kosher.
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bring them into the synagogue and teaching them the laws of the temple, having them worship in Hebrew. That’s all they had because that’s all Jesus did, right? He told Gentiles very clearly, you can’t follow me, I didn’t come for you. He never went into their homes. He never went out of that boundary. He was radically inclusive with people from the fringes of Jewish and even Samaritan society, but he did not model that with Gentiles. And so when he said, go out to all nations, the only paradigm they had, even if they did what Jesus did,
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was to make proselytites. Everyone in Jerusalem was a Jewish convert, right? They were an assimilated group. So that wasn’t this radical inclusion. It’s literally not until Acts 10 when we get the first uncircumcised Gentile and their family being baptized into the church.
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in people who don’t follow Jewish law, don’t follow Jewish customs, don’t eat the Jewish diet, don’t worship in the Jewish synagogue. And the Holy Spirit doesn’t require that for them to be baptized, right? I mean, Peter’s watching these uncircumcised Gentiles get the very same spirit that the Jews got in Acts 2, and he’s like, there’s nothing left to prevent him from baptizing these people. That’s good news, right?
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these people without assimilating or becoming acculturated can still experience relationship with God.
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And that’s good news.
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That’s not the good news that got brought to native peoples. That’s not the good news that European churches brought to the globe, right? That’s not the good news. The good news they brought was you have to learn English, you have to become civilized, you have to live by these standards and do these things this way. All we know about the morals and the ethics of Cornelius is that he cared for the poor and he prayed to God. That’s all we know.
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It’s a pretty common argument that missionaries forced the people they interacted with to adopt their clothing, their language, and their customs, and that this was a necessary part of the sharing of the gospel. And this was certainly the case at least some of the time. But why would they do this? Was there more to this story that we don’t understand being several centuries separated? I wanted to talk to a historian.
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And what better place for this discussion to start than from the heart of one of the great imperial powers, the United Kingdom. I was able to get a hold of Brian Stanley. He did a PhD and taught at Cambridge and ended up as a professor at the University of Edinburgh. He has written extensively about Christian missions and world Christianity. We got onto the topic of blind spots and the past. Brian, I’ll tell you one of the,
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things in my life that’s helping me see my blind spots. It’s my three children. You know, ages, have a boy, girl, girl, so 12, excuse me, 13, 10 and five. And as I’m trying to be a great dad and, know, I think I’m doing a decent job, but there’s times when they’re like, dad, have you thought about this or they point out inconsistencies in one’s actions at times. And it’s a beautiful thing because I appreciate their boldness and their,
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they feel the vulnerability, can ask me these things. But that’s one of the things that has really in my life taught me like, yeah, I’ve got blind spots. might think I’m going to, you know, I’m doing some things different than the generation before me, my parents, but there are still areas where I can grow from. Yeah, I mean, one way of looking at it is to say that if a past is another country, as a famous saying from a novelist, L.P. Hartley, they do things differently there.
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And so a historian is a bit like a missionary or another cross-cultural traveler who, as they go into an alien culture, their first job is to observe and to try and understand before rushing to moral judgment. It doesn’t mean one abstains from all moral judgment, but one suspends it until one feels, I’ve got a reasonable understanding of why things work as they do here.
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until the 20th century, until the rise of social anthropology, cultural anthropology, you could arrange all human societies somewhere along a continuum from barbarism, paganism, heathenism to Christian civilization at the other end. So the job of Christian missions was to drag people along the continuum from barbarism to civilization. Now some of that
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was actually good stuff. It was about education. It was about giving people basic training in health care and medicine. But an awful lot of it was also trying to make them like us, because that seemed to be part of the continuum. It was assumed that white people were at the top end of the spectrum.
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And so making people civilized was part of making people Christian. And that led to many of the worst uh excesses and failures of Christian missions. And it’s only in the 20th century and even down into the present century that missions have really begun to wrestle with that. I would say someone like myself, I’m a believer.
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I’ve heard of missions throughout my life. I’ve attended a couple of shortterm trips to other countries. But I think for many people who attend churches, at least here in United States, I won’t venture to assume worldwide. Sometimes we don’t understand or are not knowledgeable in the history of missions. I’m wondering if you could give us maybe a sweeping high-level overview of the modern missionary movement. Okay. em
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How long have I got? em What we call the modern missionary movement will depend on where you start the beginning of modernity. But in a sense, it’s the history of Christianity. The history of Christianity is a whole series of missionary movements from the New Testament onwards, from when it moved across the great cultural border from Judaism to the Gentile world of the Mediterranean and the Roman Empire.
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Then you have the evangelization of Europe during the medieval centuries. Then from the ah 15th century onwards, Christianity begins to cross the oceans from Europe, especially to the New World, as it was called, the New World of the Americas.
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And that’s when you first get some of the big problems arising of Christianity and colonialism. Because the New World was literally uh an amazing new world to most people in Europe. They weren’t too sure whether people living across the Atlantic were human or not. So sometimes they dealt with them as if they were not human. But there were others who insisted, no, they look like us, they are us.
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They just need Christianity. But broadly speaking, in that period from the 15th century through to about the 17th century, most Christian mission was undertaken under the control of European governments or in very close association with European governments because they saw it as part of the expansion of European Christendom. You could draw Christianity on a map.
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Christendom meant where Christian monarchs were in control whether they were Catholic or Protestant. Earlier, the Jehovah’s Witness from the park had used a curious phrase while sharing a verse from Ecclesiastes. So let me leave you the scripture. Ecclesiastes 8 9. All of this I have seen. I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun during the time that man has dominated man to his harm. That is the work of human government. Man has dominated man to his harm.
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And elsewhere the Bible says it does not belong to man. The mixing of government and the faith has often had disastrous results. Mark Charles shared about a historical concept called the Doctrine of Discovery, which paved the way for abuse in the colonial era. It’s essentially the church in Europe saying to the nations of Europe, wherever you go, whatever land you find not ruled by white European Christian rulers, those people are less than human and their land are your city.
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So it says things like invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, convert them to his and to their use and profit. It’s a papal bulls rim between 1452 and 1493, basically ordaining the nations of Europe to go out and claim lands in the name of the church.
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And then this doctrine gets embedded in the foundations of the country. And so, yeah, it’s massively shaped the church and the nation. And most people don’t even know it exists. They don’t even know what it is. It just it’s become such an implicit part of our worldview that we’re not even they don’t even know how to identify it anymore. Where does this instinct to rule over others?
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conquer, to invade come from? Is there something in the foundation of missions which lends itself to this? Perhaps we can find clues in the language we use. To explore this more, I talked with a transplant to the UK from Africa, a missiologist, theologian and professor, Dr. Harvey Kweyani.
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and I’ve been home here for the past eight years. I moved to Liverpool eight years ago. was teaching at a university in the area, but I have been involved in mission in the West for the past 25 years. The word mission, the way we use it today in the sense of sending people to go and evangelize other parts of the world has its history in the formation of the Jesuits.
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the Roman Catholic missionary movement, the Jesuits, and they started out in 1540. Right? And when they started out,
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the Jesuits were founded by St. Ignatius, but Ignatius was a soldier before he became a missionary. So the original documents have a lot of military language in them. The first line of the original document that got charter for the Jesuits, the first line reads, whoever wants to be a soldier for Christ.
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And that soldier is to join the society. It’s the society of Jesus the Jesuit. And somewhere um towards the end, it repeats the statement that we are going to be the militia for Christ. I says that twice. We are the militia for Christ. I mean, when you listen to people talk about, you know, going to mobilize.
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Yeah, and deploy Christians to the front line of this and that. It just doesn’t really sound like this is what Jesus would say. Definitely, he could not ask his disciples to be his soldiers in the context of the Roman Empire. There’s no way he could say, be my soldiers. And really, he doesn’t call us to be his soldiers, right? But
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in our common missions language we tend to use, come be soldiers for Christ and come do this for Christ, come join Jesus’ army. Doesn’t make sense. That military language right at the beginning of the way mission became this work of sending Christians to go and evangelize others really shapes what we think about mission.
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The soldiers, marching as to war, will not cross the river.
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this is what people don’t acknowledge, right? And this is how missions has worked for a lot of the church, right? Where it’s, we’re, you know, the Salvation Army, we’re going on a mission, we’re doing a crusade. I mean, this isn’t talking about spreading the good news. This is about subjugating people to a worldview and a culture that…
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has never been ordained as holy or I mean Jesus was very clear I did not come to create a Christian Empire I did not come to establish a worldly kingdom I’m doing something vastly different than that and so yeah I think I think the word the word mission
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falls on the side of the colonial view of God that we see throughout both the Old and the New Testament. In Genesis, the divine God is defined as creator. Later, creator becomes the God of Abraham, the God of a man. Later, the creator becomes God of Israel, the God of a people.
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that as the character of God changes, God of Abraham tests Abraham by asking him to do what to his son, kill him, right? The God of Abraham does what to Sodom and Gomorrah when he sees the sin, kills them all, right? The God of Israel is like, we’re gonna, he kills the firstborn of every child of every male in Egypt. He threatens to kill his own people when he sees them worshiping the golden calf.
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He tells them to kill everyone in Canaan and not leave anything alive that breathes. So we go literally from God defining God’s self as creator to defining God’s self as king. And the further the character of God gets from creator and the closer the character of God gets to king, the more violent, the more vindictive, the more nationalistic, and the more abusive the character of that God becomes. You know, Jesus…
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He never promised. He didn’t tell his disciples, don’t worry, in a few decades you’re going to intercept some letters that weren’t written to you. You’ll have some committee meetings and these letters, you’ll ordain them as the infallible Word of God, and in a few centuries you’ll have a book that will be the perfect revelation of who I am. I mean, Jesus never promised that. He promised the Holy Spirit. You think if Jesus
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hinged his ministry on a book, the guy would have wrote something down, but he didn’t hinge it on a book, he hinged it on the Spirit of God dwelling within the people of God.
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And so I think again, this is, so once you have a book, right, not that a book’s bad, but your book lets you create classes of your faith. Because now you have to be literate and you have to be educated and you have to write, now to know God, you have to be smart and of the upper echelons of the society, which is exactly what happened throughout the history of the church.
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And so it creates this framework for a faith that now has a hierarchy. I would call that a human construct. We’ve added that to our faith. Jesus never promised a book. He promised the Spirit of God. And we saw the way that Spirit worked in Acts 10. And we need to
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read those passages with incredible discernment so we can actually better understand what the good news actually is so that we don’t go out and become the very thing I think the church is supposed to be fighting against.
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right from the beginning, right from the 1400s, 1500s, there’s a sense in which the Europeans feel like God has called them to dominate and civilize the world. Right, so dominate, civilize and Christianize the world. That becomes a sense of this is what God has called us to do. And with that in mind, whatever happens in that process,
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as long as it leads to Christianization, which is directly connected to civilization, becomes justifiable.
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So whether it’s slave trade or oh whether it’s colonialism, as long as it’s leading to the fact that we are doing what God told us to do, to civilize and Christianize the world.
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So there is a sense of that in the history of mission. Is that it? If we stop there, it sounds like a pretty terrible history and something we should probably abandon. But is there a way to acknowledge past evils and also understand that there is something more? I caught up with a different Mark, Mark Matlock, who leads Urbana, a student missions conference, where I’m sure topics like these frequently arise. I forgot that we had actually already met
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prior to this a few years back. Yeah, good to see you, Amir. We haven’t met yet. Well, we actually did. My first day on the job at staff conference. Staff conference, you’re right. There was a lot going on that day. Yes, you’re right. It was quick though, right? It was very quick. Yes, yes, yes. I forgot about that. Yeah. There were periods of time where missionaries um participated in colonialist activities and had that kind of manifest destiny.
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kind of an idea of, you know, we’re going to conquer the earth in the name of God. um And um we got some things wrong. um You know, some people were definitely hurt and I don’t even want to minimize that almost sounds like I’m minimizing it because some of it was convert by the sword um in some aspects, um But at the same time, uh
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There’s a lot of research that’s been done looking at the benefits of some of these missionary efforts and missionaries were following colonialist trajectories. So it was the colonial movement that kind of allowed missionaries to even be able to find their way into the world. And in many ways, lot of the colonizers didn’t really like missionaries because they had a moral compass.
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and often spoke out and reported back to the authorities what was actually going on and how they were hurting and harming people. So there’s kind of two narratives there that are both true. One is a narrative of health and hope and really doing good and seeking justice uh in the midst of some really awful things that were happening. And then there’s the whole thing of, oh, we did some things wrong and contextualizing the gospel.
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So do we really just have to take the good with the bad? I wanted to hear the story of a missionary beyond Ignatius the soldier, beyond the military language roots. Were most early modern missionaries really going in with military force and subjugating nations and converting people by the sword? Or was that an overgeneralization? I do live in central Florida and probably 25 minutes from where I’m currently sitting.
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There’s multiple ministries that have like national worldwide headquarters like one for example is Wycliffe Bible Translators. And there’s a street on the way to Wycliffe uh called William Carey. William Carey, maybe Boulevard. I’m wondering if you could maybe speak into or share a little bit about who he was and how he fits into the missionary movement. Okay. William Carey was a self-educated uh
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shoemender. He cobbled shoes from the East Midlands of England, that’s sort of about halfway up on the eastern side from a little village, tiny village. And he became fascinated by the sort of second New World that was opening up. If the first New World was the Americas, the second New World was the Pacific. And that started Carey thinking about
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what the responsibility of Christians in Britain particularly might be towards these new peoples who are discovered in the Pacific. He ended up going to India, to Bengal, just north of Calcutta. He was one of the first two missionaries of the Baptist Missionary Society, one of these voluntary societies where
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Enthusiasts joined together. It wasn’t run by any church hierarchy or structure. It was a band of brothers and sisters, if you like, who banded together. And he went to India, arrived in 1793 and never came home. And he translated parts of the Bible into 26 different languages, which is not bad considering he was self-educated.
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After a while the East India Company began to notice he had extraordinary skills, linguistic skills that would be useful to the training of East India
Company personnel. So he ended up teaching in their college, Fort William College, just north of Calcutta. So he gradually got drawn into the structure and inevitably
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began maybe to revise some of his views. So it’s a complex relationship Christian missionaries often found themselves in, where you have to come to some sort of working relationship with the colonial power in order to do your work. uh And you try and stand for Christian principles, you challenge certain decisions of the colonial power, but
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inevitably you get sucked into the structures. So this whole subject of colonialism and missions is incredibly complicated um where broad generalizations usually don’t work. That’s phenomenal, Brian. It’s interesting because I drive by that street at least once a week and I wonder how many people drive by and they may never have an interest or at least don’t know.
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the impact that William Carey had. Indeed. He’s sometimes called the father of the modern missionary movement. He was a key person who began a new phase of the movement. The church has never decided, as an institution, it doesn’t want to be colonial.
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It’s never decided we want to make a substantial shift from what we were to what we should be. And so just because you have some missionaries going out doing something different, you have some missionaries going out doing something different, that doesn’t mean the institution has changed.
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And that’s where I’m saying, yeah, we need to actually address how this institution was formed and shaped. And we need to have the church collectively wrestle, right? I tell people the goal of my book on decolonizing faith is to literally, I want to cause a crisis of faith in the church. People say to me all the time as a native man, how can you be a Christian knowing what was done to your people by the church?
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And I’m one to flip that question and say, how can you be a part of a church that’s done these things to people? Right?
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How can you continue to active in a church that’s done horrible things throughout its entire history to marginalize people? And again, the goal is not to destroy the church. The goal is to make the church wrestle with what it’s been and what it is and to try and compel it to make a decision.
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not just individually, but collectively as an institution, that it wants to be something different. And the church has never done that.
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And so that’s where I’m saying, you know, we could easily excuse a lot of people and therefore a lot of institutions by taking the one example of, this person is doing this and this person is doing this, so now everything’s okay. No, that’s not true because the institution hasn’t changed.
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thing I struggle with is how would we know that the institution, the church has changed? Earlier, Mark critiqued the church council that had developed what we know to be the canon of scripture today. Would another church council be able to repair the past and set a new direction for the future? And there do seem to have been some efforts to correct the political failings of the church. Another papal bull called Sublimus Deus was issued in 1537.
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after the ones which define the doctrine of discovery. Here are some of the texts which uses dated and politically incorrect language by today’s Quote, Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ. Nor should they be in any way enslaved. End quote. Of course,
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This doesn’t repair the evils that were carried out in the name of God. And as an evangelical, I don’t often think of the Catholic Church as my heritage. But perhaps over time, we will feel if things have shifted. Seeing changes in history is a bit like looking at culture. There is evidence in the small things, but you can’t really see the broader situation until you zoom out. And speaking of culture,
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How concerned should Christians and missionaries be about it? Are we meant to be the protectors of local culture or should we allow it to adapt and change naturally? We’ll talk about that next time.
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Polyphonic, Mission After Empire is, hosted by me, Imer Santiago, and produced by Missile Nexus and Arrival Creative. Thanks for listening.