Episode 1: Donut Shop Conversations

About this episode

Host Imer Santiago joins Ted Esler, the president of Missio Nexus, at a local donut shop to set the stage for a series of conversations on mission and empire. They begin the search for real voices, real tensions, and the grey area between hero worship and horror stories. Imer hears the unfiltered opinions of the locals and talks with an early mentor, revealing why this story is as personal as it is historical.

People featured in this episode

Imer Santiag o — Host. Puerto Rican–American trumpeter, jazz musician, and worship leader based in St. Cloud, Florida. Puerto Rican–American trumpeter, jazz musician, and worship leader based in St. Cloud, Florida.

Ted Esler — President/CEO of Missio Nexus (since 2015). Former church planter in Sarajevo, Bosnia; previously held leadership roles with Pioneers. Author of The Innovation Crisis; holds a PhD in Intercultural Studies Fuller Theological Seminary.

Jose “Nano” Torres — Musician and longtime worship leader and friend of host Imer Santiago. Has served on worship teams since the 1970s and plays multiple instruments (including drums, guitar, and bass).

Music

Vendla / Green T / courtesy of Epidemic Sound

Harry Edvino / Hotel Lalo / courtesy of Epidemic Sound

Out To The World / Adaptation / courtesy of Epidemic Sound

Additional music by Imer Santia g o

Credits

Host: Imer Santia g o

Produced by: Arrival Creative Presented by: Missio Nexus

Show overview

Polyphonic: Mission After Empire is an 8-episode narrative podcast hosted by

Imer Santiago and produced by Missio Nexus. If youʼve ever wondered whether “mission” and “empire” can be untangled—or if weʼve been pretending itʼs simpler than it is—this show is for you.

Imer brings his experience as a musician and teacher into conversations with historians, missiologists, practitioners, and everyday voices—tracing what we inherited, what we missed, and what we might need to admit before we can move forward. Music isnʼt background here—itʼs the glue, the metaphor, and sometimes the argument.

This isnʼt a definitive answer guide, because we probably wonʼt get all the answers before Heaven. Itʼs a place to start listening—polyphonic in the truest sense: many voices, each with its own melody, heard together.

Host

Imer Santiag o is a Puerto Rican–American trumpeter, jazz musician, and worship leader. Heʼs from Lorain, Ohio, and now lives in St. Cloud, Florida.

He studied Jazz at Ohio State University and earned a Master of Music in Jazz Studies in New Orleans.

He serves as Director of Bands at St. Cloud Middle School and performs and leads worship throughout the year.

Transcription for this episode

Episode 1 transcription

00 04

Welcome to Polyphonic, where we’re talking about mission after empire. Episode one, where we set the stage.

00 17

So trumpet is my main instrument, but I sing, I compose a lot. Imer Santiago. It looks like I’m-er, but it’s pronounced Imer. I M E R. Yeah.

Yeah, so it’s about 722 or so this morning and I’m driving to meet my friend Ted, who I met at a conference probably seven years ago and ever since we met then we’ve realized we live in the same city and so maybe two to three times a year we’ll connect in person. More often than not we’re going to Sip and Dip Donuts. It’s a go-to spot, it’s a local place here in St. Cloud, Florida and many of us who live here in the community think it’s the best donut around.

Hey man! Ted, good morning! Wow, rockin’ the white frames today. Yes, yes. I have different colors, so…

01 11

I’m gonna do an apple fritter please. Well, my name is Ted Esler and I first got engaged in mission. I went to uh just a regular Sunday morning church service and there was a old-timey missionary speaking and it blew my mind that there were people doing this kind of work uh in the modern era and I was intrigued. Within two years or so we found ourselves in the Balkans on a church planting team in the middle of a war zone.

After living there for eight or nine years, we felt like our kids needed a break from this war zone environment. And our organization opened up an opportunity for us to serve. During that time, I got to just meet literally hundreds of missionaries and see a lot of what was going on around the world. Got a PhD in missiology. And I just thought, wow, I could spend my life investing in the Great Commission. It’s just such an

overarching theme of the whole Bible. That’s more than I’m gonna eat in one sitting. That’s a breakfast right there. That’s dessert. So how’s the school year going? It has been an active school year. um We just got done marching in the annual Puerto Rican Day Parade, which I had never been to it. Where does that happen? So this was in downtown Orlando.

My name is Imer Santiago. I’m a Christian, a husband and father, a musician, a teacher, an American, a Puerto Rican. Sometimes there are moments in life where you see your various identities and experiences connect and it starts to make sense why you’re here. Ted had some complicated ideas on his mind that morning as we chewed on our donuts and slurped our coffee.

So for 225 years, the missions world has been really dominated by Westerners. The good news is that we’ve had success in global mission in the church now outside the US is very influential. It’s growing, it’s vibrant, it’s large. It’s encouraging to see what’s happened. At the same time, about a third of the world’s population continues to live in cultures.

where they will never hear the gospel, they’ll never have a friend who’s a Christian, oh now they could get on the internet and do some personal searching, but there’s nothing in their world that would prompt them to do that unless it’s supernatural. And God can work that way, but God invites us in to be part of the process of helping them understand and know Jesus. And so I would say that even though the global church is growing,

and we have new opportunities for partnership, there’s exciting things happening, yet there continues to be a need for missionaries. But the fallout from colonialism, it’s not only been huge, it’s going to continue to be huge and roll forward into the future. I’ve thought about whether we should do some kind of a series on the topic of colonialism and mission, but as I think about…

04 27

what I do in my role in the missions community. probably not the best one to tease that out. And I’m curious as to what your thoughts are about that topic and about whether or not you’d be interested in helping us put together something.

04 40

a set of conversations on that topic. I would say too, mean music is probably a good, it’s a good platform to think about these things. What do they say, music is a world within itself in a language we all understand? Quoting a prophet of music there. So, you know, I don’t know how that might come up in conversations, but that would be interesting as well. I don’t really have a outcome agenda, but more of an exploration over time.

05 08

of the topic and what it means long term for the missions community. Have you thought much about that? As a musician, I’m accustomed to exploration within a complex system. Trying to find the right note and the right time to play it, all the while keeping in mind the harmony and the melody, the time signature and the key we’re playing in. But it would be different with this topic. I wasn’t nearly as familiar.

First off, I want to see if real people outside of the missions community actually had thoughts about these topics and if they care about them. It feels as if the city of Orlando is smooth jazz at a return here on the path at Lake Eola as we’re walking. It’s slightly more energetic than elevator music but could be its cousin.

that better? Here we go. Are you a person of faith? And if you are, tell us more about your faith. Yes, I’ve been a part of my Christian church ever since I was born. I’m an Israelite, but I don’t follow traditional guidelines and stuff like that. I’m agnostic. I grew up with my mom was Christian. She ended up getting my dad agnostic.

06 27

If there is a God, he relishes and bloodshed and he must be terribly, terribly happy with everything that’s going on. So if there is a God, then I would say, so you’re a Christian. Yes, I’m a Christian. Very cool. Let me ask you this. What does missions mean to you when you hear like missions, missionaries, missions, mission trips? First image I see is a country other than America, like, and.

Christians spreading the gospel to other nations. A group of people go to a place, push out the natives, murder, genocide, bio warfare, it’s all the same. History is constantly repeating itself and we don’t learn. Well, the Great Commission, a response to the Great Commission in Matthew 26, go unto all the earth and

I should know this verse, this is my job. Yeah, but going to all the world and make disciples. Make disciples among all the nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. And he sent out his disciples and I believe that that is a call he still gives his believers today. that is my response to the Great Commissions is, yes. Not everybody in the United States, maybe even around the world, when they think of missions, thinks positively. Like most believers was.

say this is Jesus wants us to do. Missionaries have hurt us. What are some of maybe the, what are your thoughts on that? There’s this crazy statistic even of not even just non-believers and their response to missions but even believers in the church with like the millennial generation. 76 or 80 percent of them believe that it was morally incorrect to share your faith hoping someone would convert. Are we talking like like way back when? back when to like

to now? ah Like colonizers um forcing it and stripping identity and sometimes ah the religion is very very closely tied with culture. It’s terrible history honestly it is. I would say it’s a lot of positive but you also gotta understand that a lot of people do things in the name of faith or in the name of Christianity or in the name of it’s always in the name of

But what are their motives? know, who is pulling the strings above them?

It’s always a question mark. A question mark is a good way to think about this topic. Where will these discussions lead us? Will we make any progress? These interactions made me realize that consensus isn’t easy to come by. And people’s messy thoughts and experiences make it even more complicated.

Maybe I need to start with a bit of my own story and how I ended up here. I caught up with one of my earliest mentors from back in Ohio where I was raised. His name is Nano and he’s one of the reasons I’m a musician today. The passion behind it for me is when I’m playing, I can actually feel God when I’m doing it. That might be hard to understand for lot of people, but that’s why I do it for him and because I feel him.

That’s like the greatest inspiration you can get. Yes. It’s funny because we’re talking decades. Yeah. I know it was my ninth grade year, you know, and I’ve been playing trumpet for a couple of years in school. But I really credit you and I’ve told you this before is one of my earliest mentors m from two aspects and maybe three. One was musical.

There were moments where you weren’t afraid like a father to a son to really instruct me. So I’ll give an example now. I remember this and again, 13, 14 year old, I didn’t know any better, but we were tuning before a rehearsal and I, or you were tuning and I’m playing my trumpet and I, know, and finally you say, Hey bro, you can’t do that. Like it’s gotta be one at a time, you know, because the technology back now is probably a little different, but like, you know.

10 31

You were tuning and me playing was distracting and not allowing you to do what you had to do. So even lessons like that I carry to this day, I still, I teach middle school band and there’s times we’re tuning and kids are just, you know, noodling around. like, yo, you have this time. So even when that happens, I credit you for, you know, helping me musically to learn. Another musical lesson I remember was, you know, as a horn player, primarily back then, uh

I’d want to just play through a lot of things and you were like, hey, you need to listen to the music, you know, uh different styles of music and realize you got to pick your, your parts, your horn player. So you’re accentuating. That was the first time that was a revelation to me that, Oh, I got to pick my parts, know, ba da da da da da da, you know, and accentuate what the band was doing as opposed to just playing throughout the whole thing. So those are musical lessons, but then spiritually, um, you were mentored to me as well. and I’ve had the chance since.

you know, way back then till now to work with a lot of worship teams, secular bands as well. ah But I remember there was a very strong emphasis that you had, and I know you still have this spiritual things, spiritual disciplines as well. So it wasn’t that we just showed up and played and rehearse, but we spent time praying. We spent time fasting. There were times you would pick me up at five in the morning, 530 on a Sunday, you know, we’d go to church, the band, and we would, you know, be in fasting and prayer. And those are some disciplines that

11 57

I don’t know that they’re as incorporated in a lot of worship teams as much as it was back in the day with you. And then of course, you’re a little bit older than me, right? So like that example of manhood for me to see a Latino male and what it is for a person like me to be married, a person of faith, a musician. So I thank you for being that mentor in those ways. You’re welcome. It was fun to reminisce with Nano and

12 27

remember those foundational experiences. But Nano also spoke about a tension that we experienced during that time. It was between my academic studies and the passion for music that was growing within me. I remember he studied a lot and I didn’t want to try to get in his way of that. And I don’t know if that bothered him a little bit. As parents too, if your parents, you know, they want you to succeed, they don’t see music like you’re the parent. uh

We have a different sight for music than the parents. The parents want you to get straight A’s and be a success and make a lot of money. But, which is good. Do you remember, Nano, there was a night, it relates to what you just said, we were rehearsing at your house and it might have gone over a little bit. I don’t know, like if normally we got done at nine, it might have been 9.30, 9.45. And my dad showed up and he was not too thrilled. And I walk up, said, get in the car.

He was talking to you, I was so embarrassed because, you know, I know you guys have known each other and even worked at the same company, Ford Motor, but do you remember that night? Yeah. Yeah. So that speaks to some of the tension, right? Like, yeah, obviously they love you. We are still in touch, that kind of thing. But they definitely didn’t see what you and I were seeing. Yeah. There’s always a price to pay to achieve something, whether it’s academically or musically.

13 54

My brother, he has a saying that’s pretty cool. He calls it a casualty.

If you please one person, then they don’t, you don’t please the other one. One person becomes a casualty. There would be many tensions in this discussion about missions and colonialism that would mirror this early tension. One spoke to a more concrete aspect of life. The truth that in order to live in this world, you need to get good grades and therefore a good job, and then make money so that you can survive. And the other to a more intangible spirit.

The necessity of seeking that which you are passionate about. Those two, the concrete truth and the intangible spirit, work together. Nano said that there’s always a price to pay to achieve something. What price was that in regard to missions? And was it worth it? To find out, I would need to know who to talk to. I feel like I could come up with a good list of folks to talk to.

And to me, one of the values here, I mean, I’m steeped in this stuff. I’ve got a PhD in missiology. I’ve heard arguments this way. I’ve heard arguments that way. I participate in forums. are strong opinions. But you’re a little bit outside that world. And it might be uh refreshing to have somebody come into that conversation that doesn’t have this insider’s perspective.

I know where the land mines are, so I avoid them. But that doesn’t really help good conversation. That doesn’t really tease out the issues. And I might not like what you discover if you have these conversations. You know, I don’t want to send you out as a babe of un-wolves, because there are some pretty strong feelings around these topics.

You know, people have based life and scholarship and all sorts of things on assumptions in these models, various models of mission. making sure that we tease out the issues, uh it may be a little dicey at times, but I think it’d be really fun and worthwhile and educational. It’d be educational for

see you interact with some of these insiders and learn as you go along. A babe among wolves sounds pretty intense. But Ted was right. There would be some strong opinions on this topic. How would we weave them together? In music, there’s a concept known as polyphonic texture.

Polyphonic literally means many voices. Each voice has a distinct melody.

heard together to create a complex interwoven song. In order to create this song, or in this case, conversation, we would need to speak to many types of people. From missions leaders, to missionaries themselves, to academics, and of course,

One of the main reasons colonialism exists is because people were trying to spread their love of God. You know how many people, millions of people who die? Well, that’s undeniable.

Sometimes when we try to do good things, we do bad things. You can’t have an open hand to those issues. We have to close our hand around, and I’m like a broken record here, but what the Bible teaches. And again, when it comes to doing mission, what’s the best model? I don’t really know, but I would say I would take a pragmatic rather than ideological approach. What actually works? If we ask, let’s just do what Jesus did. Well, Jesus was fairly ethnocentric. oh He is not a good model to follow for mission.

Hopefully, you know, we’re correcting mistakes of the past and we’ll probably make new ones for future generations to correct. wasn’t too much written on the history of the missionary movement apart from hero worship or the opposite, that is uh a towering of the whole missionary movement with a brush of colonialism. I wanted to chart a path somewhere between the two. The next question was where to start the conversation.

I suppose we should go back to the beginning. But what beginning? The beginning of missions, or of the church, or of the faith itself? Is there something within all of these, and even within the Bible itself, that necessitates the colonial structure? I guess we’ll find out.

Polyphonic, Mission After Empire is hosted by me, Imer Santiago, and produced by Missio Nexus and Arrival Creative. Thanks for listening.